Friday, 17 February 2012

Isaiah 53 "Suffering Messiah: Clarification!!


זֶרַע
 וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי--אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה זֶרַע(Seed) יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים; וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה, בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח(Isaiah 53:10)
Steven Pankratz –“Yeshuas Offspring are all of us disciples that follow him, we have been adopted into his Family! In the 40 days after his Resurrection he saw many of his offspring follow Him, becoming Sons of God! And his days are eternal, It doesn't get any more prolonged than That! “
Answer - Sir, in this case you have gone wrong cause Jesus was son Of YHWH the Father & not Father himself. That is precisely what he says “No one is Greater but Father”. He explicitly said that he is not a Father but son. One more interesting thing he said lets see:
Luke 15:15-” I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
In short earlier Disciples were Jesus’s Servants but latter got Promotion and became Friends of Jesus not Sons as you have just said. Also Jesus clearly mentions that father is the source from whom he managed to get knowledge. One more thing Isaiah clearly mentions “he will prolong his days” it is a physical act and not figurative .Its a Blessing for Israel 's suffering.How can you say that “it does’nt get prolonged” when bible openly admits that it does. Saying otherwise is Blasphemy of Prophet Isaiah book. Resurrection is a fallacy, I assure you more Shocking Articles are coming soon about alleged resurrection. Just wait for some time…


Steven Pankratz –“Objection 4: "If the disciples of Jesus were meant (53:10), then it should be written, "sons", not "seed"; for the word "seed" only refers to physical descendents."
 This objection is actually founded upon a mistake, for the text does not have "his seed", but "a seed". This corresponds exactly with the use of "a seed shall serve him" in Psalm 22:30, which contains a similar prophecy to this one, that "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before him. . . A seed shall serve him; it shall be counted to the Lord for a generation; they shall come and shall declare his righteousness to a generation yet unborn, that he has done this." (Psalm 22:27-31)
Further, "seed" is elsewhere used in a sense other than the physical. For example, in Genesis 3:15, "seed of the serpent" surely does not mean to refer to literal physical descendents of a serpent. And Isaiah uses "seed" in the tradition of "sons of", when he says, "seed of evil-doers" (1:4).”
Answer- Sir, first of all, I have clearly refuted that Jesus ever addressed Disciples or any one of following as his SONS.  So, this won’t make any sense; secondly, yes its true that it may not all the time refer to Physical Decendant that I even made clear in my article it self, but the fact is that The Hebrew word for "seed", used in 53:10, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures.  When it does’t mean physical decendant it uses other words that the beauty of Hebrew it never confuses e.g Deut 14:1 uses word “bnim” בָּ נִ ים . Similarly in one of example like Gen15:13 in which it means Literal son we again find the word
zro·k  זַרְ עֲ, So when we have Literal we have different word and when figurative we have different. So again a clear refutation.
Steven Pankratz -“But the chief most answer to all of the above objections, and to the very conception that the one spoken of in Isaiah 53 must be the people of Israel, instead of the messiah, is that the sufferer must be righteous; without sin; and suffering innocently. And yet never is Israel's exile said to be without cause, or wanton; but rather, as the punishment for sins. And the principal reason provided for the delay in the messiah's arrival is the continuance of sin among them. Thus, they cannot be both innocent and suffering without cause, yet at the same time be guilty of such sins as warrant their exile and the delay of the messiah.”
 
Answer- Sir , kindly understand In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Kindly check In chapter 52, for example, Israel is described as "oppressed without cause" (v.4) and "taken away" (v.5), yet God promises a brighter future ahead, one in which Israel will again prosper and be redeemed in the sight of all the nations (v.1-3, 8-12). So again refuted.

Finally Lamoh means to them , I read your link in which it mentions rabbi david kimchi whose  Hebrew grammar he says mentions , " 'Mo' [mem-vav] represents the third person singular mentions . Sir, do you see the fallacy of that or not? Lets quote exactly what ur article says:-  Kimchi, who originated the argument, at another time denied it. In his challenge to the Nazarenes he says, "Moreover, the prophet says, 'to them'; but then, (if this referred to Jesus), the prophet ought to have said, 'to him' ('lo'). Article says “In His Hebrew Grammer” &If it did be True Don’t you think it would still hold true. Cat means Cat today also in dicionery and in Grammer as it used to thousand of years. The very Idea is a fraud lamoh means “To Them ”& not “To Him “. I gave link also for people to verify just see for ur self {
לָמוֹ}.  the Hebrew word for “they were”(lamoh – לָמוֹ) always refers to a group, never to an individual. (see for example, Psalms 99:7).
 He submitted his grave to evil people; and the wealthy submitted to his executions, for committing no crime, and with no deceit in his mouth.
Missionaries cite this verse as a claim that Jesus lived a sinless life, and was thus the Messiah. But I have already refuted it in my article. Throughout history, Jews were given the choice to “convert or die.” Yet as this verse describes, there was “no deceit in his mouth” – the loyal Jews refused to accept a pagan deity as their God. Rather than profane God’s Holy Name, they “submitted to the grave” – i.e. chose to die rather than renounce their faith. As such these Jews were often denied proper burial, discarded “to the grave as evil people.”
Further, wealthy Jews "submitted to his executions, for committing no crime" – killed so that wicked conquerors could confiscate their riches. Furthermore, if Jesus was alleged to be the immortal Son of God, it is absurd to apply the concept of “Prolong his days”.
“He would see the purpose and be satisfied with his soul's distress. With his knowledge My servant will cause the masses to be righteous(צַדִּיק); and he will bear their sins.”
Missionaries cite this verse to claim that Jesus died for our sins. The Christian idea of one’s sins being forgiven through the suffering of another person goes against the basic biblical teaching that each individual has to atone for his own sins by repenting. (Exodus 32:32-33, Deut. 24:16, Ezekiel 18:1-4)
Lets focus on original verse, it says by His knowledge he shall Justify many and not by his blood or dying on the cross etc. The Jewish mission is to serve as a "light to the nations," leading the world to righteousness through knowledge of the one true God. The Jews will accomplish this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zechariah 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God's Law (Isaiah 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3). As it says: “The world will become full of the knowledge of God, as water covers the sea” (Isaiah 11:9).
Therefore, I will assign him a portion in public and he will divide the mighty as spoils – in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, for he bore the sin of the many, and prayed for the wicked.
This verse speaks of how the Jews always pray for the welfare of the nations they are exiled into (see Jeremiah 29:7). The verse continues to explain that the Jewish people, who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God, will be rewarded.
some have claimed that the "suffering servant" cannot be Israel, since Israel has sins. Yet this is a fallacy, since we know that no human being – not even Moses – is completely free of sin. Yet Moses was considered “righteous,” which takes into account not only one's good deeds, but also one's repentance after sin.
Imediately following this promise of reward for the Jews’ suffering (53:10-12), chapter 54 clearly speaks of the redemption which awaits the Jewish people. This point is acknowledged by all Christian commentaries.

Robert Mascharan





 

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